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45-70 questions

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JLud View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 45-70 questions
    Posted: September/14/2017 at 18:37
Going to start 45-70 soon and will probably do some 405 cast bullets, such as Oregon Trail Laser-Cast.  Anything special I need to do with these besides normal brass, primer, powder, and seat?  Any special dies required to do both these and jacketed bullets...will do some 300 and 350 jacketed as well most likely.

Having only done jacketed bullets I wanted to ask and be sure.  Thanks, 
That thing on the left....my old ride, some days I miss her.
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anweis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anweis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2017 at 20:12
6 rifles, 4 calibers, and 1,800 lbs of lead cast into many thousands of bullets have taught me that
1. you should shoot bullets about 0.001" larger that the groove diameter of your rifle, sometimes more, and that you should not assume what that groove diameter is but measure it
2. when you test loads don't try 3 shot groups, cast bullets need sometimes 10-20 shots to coat the bore with lube and carbon and settle into grouping, sometimes more
3. you must use a good special dedicated case mouth flaring die to open and flare the neck and case mouth before seating the bullets,; i usually. do this in the same stage as priming. Cast bullets need no more than 0.001" of case neck tension, otherwise you will deform the bullet base and seat the bullet crooked. A good case mouth flare allows you to seat and insert the bullet freely by hand about 1/8" into the case mouth, upon seating the bullet the case neck should expand no more than 0.001"
4. crimp the case mouths, but not too much and too hard, most of the time a light crimp is all you need, unless you have a magazine rifle, than you need more crimp, but beware of mangling the bullets
5 seating depth and COL calculations apply, but differently than with jacketed bullets. You may discover that the crimp groove on the bullet is not where you want it for best most accurate seating depth, and often lead bullets don't like to be seated too close to the rifling, but it really depends on the shape of their nose
6. expect several weeks or month of experimentation if you are retired and have time to shoot often, more if you shoot once per month.
7. hard and undersized bullets (like Oregon trail hard, but your bore may like them) are the worst possible combination, they will lead the bore and you will have to get the lead out, soft bullets may shoot better, you will know you have a leading problem if you rifle goes south after a few shots; softer properly sized bullets with good lube (not too hard) may be shoot forever without cleaning, if you clean you may have to fire 20 times to foul the bore again
8. if you have a micro grooved Marlin take up knitting instead
9 and 10. For advise 9 and 10 please send a redeemable coupon for the value of 6 gallons of good strong Belgian Ale.
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JLud View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2017 at 21:00
Lol...ill see how 1-8 go and then decide on 9-10.  


Rifles will be firing in will be Marlin cowboy, marlin 1895 sbl, and Winchester 1886 (Japan made new one).  What would be the best 405 bullets to look at for being able to use in all 3 please?  

Thanks again
That thing on the left....my old ride, some days I miss her.
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anweis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anweis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2017 at 21:44
There is no answer to your question, there are way too many variables that can influence accuracy. Your rifles will tell you, you need to listen.
I suggest buying a notebook and keeping records. If you develop your loads on an experiment plan, like a research table or such, at some point your notes will tell you which way to go. You can start with well known accuracy loads and that Oregon trail bullet
Start with very clean bores, don't clean often, or at all (unless your groups are a foot wide, then you have a leading problem). Load 30-50 cartridges and try them in each of 3 rifles. One of them may like one load and bullet, others may not. 
Loads in the 1300 fps range are fun and tend to be accurate if the bullet agrees with the bore and the powder agrees with the primer.
After you go through 1-8 and the above, after firing 1,000 rounds, if you learn from what you are doing, you will move to buying bullet molds and casting your own and experimenting with alloys. Then the fun really starts...
A chronograph helps. For example, if you get consistent velocities but poor accuracy, it means the load is good, the bullet is bad or poorly loaded...
What i am saying is that this is a learning process for each one rifle and bullet,  you get the basics from a book or two and online, the rest comes from your own learning.
Buy some super soft slugs for pushing through the bores and measuring groove diameter. That is the starting point for choosing the bullet diameter.
 
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anweis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anweis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2017 at 21:46
i suppose this is 3b: buy a seating die that allows seating fat bullets, like the rcbs cowboy die. see that the seating cup/stem fits the nose shape of the bullet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldfortyfive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2017 at 09:43
One of the great things about the 45-70 is that it it's inherently accurate....shoots reasonable well with most.
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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2017 at 10:27
Just curious, why use lead when there are so many good jacketed bullet options.  The amount of time you spend cleaning all that crap out negates any cost benefits.  At least that is my opinion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldfortyfive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2017 at 10:49
If your bullet is sized correctly to the bore and you're not over-driving them leading isn't an issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2017 at 10:58
agreed, but with jacket it don't matter.  You can drive them as fast as you want and don't have to worry about them being sized correctly. 

Obviously just my opinion, but I would rather just load and shoot rather than having to deal with all that. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldfortyfive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2017 at 11:24
Over the years I've migrated to shooting pretty much nothing but cast except for hunting. The new coated cast bullets are really nice. Keeps the cost down so I can shoot more. The larger calibers are much more pleasant to shoot for us older guys and the kids.
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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2017 at 11:29
Do you powder coat any yourself?  I know a lot of folks are doing that these days, making their own bullets and coating them too.  Lots are 300 blk shooters do it. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2017 at 12:53
I was just going to do it for cost purposes. Box of 50 350grn flat notes is about 27 bucks...can get 250 of Oregon trail cast for 65 or so. I really just wondered if anything special to know about loading lead bullets and sound like fairly normal process can be used with correct seating for. Control barrel lead through velocity and correct size from what I gather.

Plus 405 gr just sounds kick ass
That thing on the left....my old ride, some days I miss her.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldfortyfive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2017 at 13:00
I'm buying most of my coated cast (SNS Casting). The only ones I'm not buying are bullets that I want with gas checks. Those I cast. In my experience coated bullets tend to shoot better than the uncoated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2017 at 21:48
Get ready for another thread soon....I like the 450 Marlin Trails end I got well enough that I ordered another Winchester in 38-55, new sporter model.  New 1886 that I mentioned above is on the way as well.  Something about the winchesters, specifically Japan ones in my case, feels and looks like a much higher end rifle than the marlins.  

I have a 30/30 336 with cardboard wedged in between the barrel band and fore end of the stock because the wood was so loose in it and couldn't tighten it more....does not inspire confidence.  It was a remlin one though.

Back before too long with more questions on the 38-55.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2017 at 22:49
Buy a Henry too.  I think you will love it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2017 at 22:58
Finally got the ball rolling and tried a few tonight.  Belled case just enough to get the tapered portion to sit inside the case...or about a dime thickness.  

Adjusted my crimp....minor differences between the two....any thoughts on how they look?  Both acceptable, one better than other?  Between .004 and .005 taper off of .480 diameter at very end. They chambered fine.



  
That thing on the left....my old ride, some days I miss her.
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JLud View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2017 at 21:34
wanted to throw this out there to make sure I'm on the right path before I make too many of them.  1886 Miroku new Winchester...loading low end of AA2015 load data from their site with a 405 laser cast.  No where on rifle or manual does it say what pressure I can load it to, but staying tier 2 and below...no ruger loads or even close and this should keep me well under 28,000 cup at 44.5 grains of AA2015.

For crimp, think it looks ok and will try some to see if they move.  I have pressed them against counter as hard as I can and am not getting a shift so think ok.  Again, about .005 difference from the .480 of the remainder of the neck.  My questions are does the crimp look ok, and is it in the correct portion of the crimp groove.  

 The one on my left I assume is not desired as part of the groove is exposed...going to shoot it probably anyways.  The one on the right is what I think they should look like and it measure 2.516s vs max length of 2.550 so just want to double check what I think is good vs which experienced loaders think is good.  I don't have any 45-70 factory 405s to compare to.

thanks, 



That thing on the left....my old ride, some days I miss her.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sucker76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2017 at 20:50
The crimp on the right looks OK to my untrained eye.  I have some factory Remington 405gr JSP at home.  I can measure the OAL.  Those only have a canelure and not a crimp groove so I'm not sure it will help.  I'm at work now and won't get to measure til the morning. 
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